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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 10, 2014 21:38:41 GMT 1
Looking at you, Thalslaw.
Enjoy the consequences.
Jokes aside, this was always going to happen. Don't go getting offended, I had this planned for anytime in Verse 2/3/4. ... I just decided to trigger it now, thanks to Thalslaw's village-in-a-city-speedrun. ^_^
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 10, 2014 23:46:40 GMT 1
Also, sorry to double-post, but I wish to draw attention to this one.
On a more serious note: You guys have *way* too much sway in Aiwelleah. I should never have let you get that much, the fact that anything you need to work out - like the references in Verse 2 - you can just essentially order the whole city to look things up for you. That's no fun for me to GM, frankly. It completely removes any hint of a challenge from the game, without me going to ridiculous extremes.
Which I kinda have to do now. Because like I said, I let things get too far.
EDIT: See, now I'm just ruining what's left of the evening for myself by dwelling on how much I let the RP turn into something I'm not enjoying. :/
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Post by Kairo on Dec 11, 2014 0:11:18 GMT 1
That's understandable. I had moments like that with Sondaale and a couple of other characters, when things would have otherwise been hidden and interesting, were completely obvious to her superhuman perceptions. This is one of the challenges of GM'ing, especially in something like a high powered game, which this isn't... yet. It will get more crazy once we get more magically powerful. Right now, any of the other mages in the colleges could likely put us on our backsides if they used force. But, we're very much a peaceful and talky party.
Though, if you have characters who's purpose is to order people around, which Nemos kind of is, being one of the more talky characters, people will be more likely to listen to him if he has influence and a persuasive tone, thus he's going to do what he's good at. Whether the people listen to him or not, or agree with what he's saying, that's up to you.
If I was to give one bit of advice, it would be 'not everyone likes being ordered around' and don't be afraid to put your foot down.
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 0:13:22 GMT 1
I already let it get too far to go back now, without literally flattening the city. If this were the novel I'd delete the last chapter.
Lesson learned. Doesn't fix the fact I'm not enjoying the main plot.
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Post by darky on Dec 11, 2014 0:15:24 GMT 1
No worries, we'll put a stop to Nemos. I assume 'plan B' from Jadyr is self explanatory?
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 0:16:41 GMT 1
Doesn't change the fact that I've given him this much power over the city, there's no way he'd just not use it again.
This is actually one of the few really fun things I have in my life, it's crazy busy. Shouldn't be driving me to tears with stress and unenjoyment.
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Post by darky on Dec 11, 2014 0:19:44 GMT 1
It'd be IC for Jadyr to not let it happen again on the basis of it's annoying more than one person and it's just silly. i don't want to see CoP go through lack of enjoyment by the GM
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 0:20:26 GMT 1
Really want Thalslaw's input.
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Post by Kairo on Dec 11, 2014 0:21:16 GMT 1
There's another thing. As Children of Power, we have added influence and power that, in a normal game, characters of our level should be far off attaining, if we use it right. That influence, some of us won't really know what to do with IC, and that's fine. What you need to think about is what happens if one of us does know how to use it. This is a good example of what could happen. One last thing, if players put a lot of time and effort into a plan, they shouldn't really be 'punished' for it. On the other hand, if they're just abusing their power, go for it, no holds barred. If the other players don't get there first I'm trying to be helpful and give some constructive criticism at the same time, hopefully that's coming across.
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Post by thalslaw on Dec 11, 2014 0:22:54 GMT 1
That's a thing. I've built this situation to die after I'm done with it. We can have it that people don't like being ordered around, and I may end up with what I want, but people find my style and matterisms too foreign and unfamiliar to cope with long term.
That's a thing. It's like how the French coped with being made an occupied territory. There were a lot of people who went on with it for the beginning, but morale gets really, really low after only a little time.
At the moment, though, I'm just satisfied I've made the library equivalent of google. I'm sorry my approach is to raise the stakes all the time.
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 0:23:47 GMT 1
To put it bluntly: You shouldn't have nearly that much influence. Verse 5? Yeah, that's about when cities should be jumping to your command. And time/effort plans, you won't get punished. This wasn't a well thought out plan.
Edit: Thalslaw, what do you mean you're satisfied? Satisfied your GM was driven to tears through stress of how to continue the campaign? Great. I won't be at this rate.
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Post by thalslaw on Dec 11, 2014 0:26:02 GMT 1
Nobody should have that much influence. Hence why I agonised before doing it. Edit: Satisfied in terms of IC achievement.
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 0:27:09 GMT 1
Doesn't fix anything.
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Post by Kairo on Dec 11, 2014 0:35:40 GMT 1
A point out of all this is, we don't set out to make your GM'ing less fun. That's never even been on our radar. We're here to have fun and contribute to the experience of all the other players and the GM, as much as you are. The thing is, if a player does something funky and weird, and the GM chooses to roll with it, you have to be able to deal with the consequences of that. Me, you and Thalslaw have all had experiences like that For a more extreme example of a player given power: In a game based around vampires, Thalslaw the GM gave me an infinite pool of blood. What happened as a consquence was I punched a door so hard, it created a rift in space, and I got booted through said rift, and ended up rolling up the same character, in a different system and adventuring in a different world from the one he started in. This was after we figured out what would probably happen. That was a massive plot derailment, but we had fun with it in the end. To be fair, I was stuck in that damn room for 2 hours OC time before resorting to drinking the blood and punching the door. So I feel somewhat justified in the outcome So yeah, that scenario has since become known as 'punching the door' and has become synonymous with the player doing something potentially stupid. It's a running joke now.
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 0:41:09 GMT 1
That's why I've locked the Main Plot. We are going to work out a solution before anyone posts. But being happy at derailing things to this point isn't a solution to anything, even if that sentiment is just IC. I mean, for example, when Neko and Kairo, back before we transferred here - I do believe you guys once rolled so well on Investigation in a library that I literally had to go lie down for a minute and work out what the hell the plot is because I haven't thought that far ahead. That I do not mind. Making Google in w library, that I mind.
And that I want a solution to.
Oh, anyone in the Marstow Subplot may continue to post. The Main Plot will not be locked for long.
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Post by thalslaw on Dec 11, 2014 0:41:54 GMT 1
The important thing is that Nemos' achievements can safely die when this is done. And then you can gently lock things up in terms of options afterwards. Especially as this is a classic example of abuse of power.
The question Nemos asks in this situation is "Do I trust Mankind to save itself?" That's what this situation is asking. The truth is, I don't know. After everything he'd seen, all the fighting, and the chaos around him. He would only know what we want to believe; what has been proved time and time again and has been proved by the twins' actions even now: somehow, human decency will triumph.
These past few months, he's faced many life-threatening situations. We could all have given up many times, but his need to know the truth, to uncover the secrets that others were hiding, and to survive, forced him to keep on going. Sometimes I considered the effect his actions would have on others, and found solutions that would benefit us all. Other times he would have did the opposite, abusing power and resources without care, simply to benefit himself. So what does this say about him, that he'd willingly make enemies of Roden, or willfully kill bandits when the loss of human life is immoral? Perhaps that he is only human, and looking for a way to survive. Of course, so are Jadyr, Melasni and Kairo. Each of them idealistic men, so caught up in achieving their view of the future they fail sometimes to see the chaos they left behind.
So now, idealistically if you wish, I decided this way. I'm leaving the future up to ordinary men and women to decide. The kind of people who, time and time again, have picked and chosen the future in highly practical ways - slowing change when it's negative, speeding it up when it's good. Can they do it again? I don't know. But I do know I'm not about to let anyone stand in their way. You 'do' have the power of their voice, Maiyrhia. And hope says we get the response and the suddenly search engine dies.
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 0:45:57 GMT 1
Question. Answer honestly. If the village were to disappear beyond all hope of rebuilding, once Nemos recovered from his injuries, can I trust this situation won't recur time and again?
Yes, I said injuries. Once we find this solution, the consequence I mentioned is still happening.
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Post by Kairo on Dec 11, 2014 0:52:42 GMT 1
I think in this situation, it's up to all of us to find a solution. Since we all had a hand in it. Your suggestion is fine by me, I should hope things don't get as out of hand again.
There's a line where something makes sense for a character to do IC, but makes the GM's life a lot harder. That just happens, there can't be much helping it. But, in crossing that line the player has to consider the following. "If I push it further, even if it makes sense for the character, is this going to be 'taking the piss' and be detrimental to everyone else's fun." In that sense, the player has to 'break the 4th wall' a bit. In this case, it ended up upsetting you. Which we obviously didn't want to happen.
That's not to say the blame is all on Thalslaw. Its important that you learn from this, for future, to become a better GM, which is why I've mentioned all the things so far in this thread.
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Post by thalslaw on Dec 11, 2014 0:57:25 GMT 1
I resisted, barely at times, to do things like that because I value human lives and considerations. But can I truly despise others that fail? I'm going to answer you honestly and say: You're safe. Everyone is. I know much more now that raising the stakes to become something more than we are risks losing our ability to make the right choices - the very things that make us Human, sometimes. It risks giving some men the power to make others what they choose - regardless of the cost to human dignity. Which is what's making things so stressful.
Nemos 'does' have an interest in this direction. But again: he's building things that require a lot of interaction. I'm a real talker. I'm built for talking. This lead to conflicts with others who essentially believe the same thing.
If you'll excuse a bit of inwardness, I've got further thoughts on that. Because more often than not, I resisted the urge to abuse power and resources simply to reach my goals more swiftly. I managed to hang on to my humanity -- but the temptation to ignore it is always there. It's that temptation that so worries people. We're afraid of the chaos that erupts when individuals have nothing but morality to constrain them. And it's stressful.
But that's something that may come out in the debate that Nemos may have with Kairo. They need to have this talk.
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 1:04:10 GMT 1
Honestly, that isn't an answer that satisfies me. Kairo, I thank you for your input, though. It is very valuable.
Thalslaw, I'm not happy that you won't go right ahead and do something like this again. Please stop talking in flowery gibberish and answer me plainly. Can I trust you not to pull stuff like this again? As Kairo said, there's a line where something's IC but you know it'll make the GM's life hell. Your characters aren't having that talk until I get a solution. In. Plain. English.
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Post by thalslaw on Dec 11, 2014 1:06:58 GMT 1
I will not do something like this again.
TL;DR of my previous point?: Give me power and I promise I'll try not to corrupt.
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Post by Kairo on Dec 11, 2014 1:07:52 GMT 1
I'm with Maiy on this one, use plain english, no references to the french, Mongolians, Goruvians, the swiss or any other culture. This goes for IC as well. Because you have a habit of saying stuff sometimes which makes the GM go 'Wha...?"
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 1:08:21 GMT 1
Not Too Long; Didn't Read. Too Complex; Didn't Understand is more the point... All right. Let's continue. I shall unlock the thread, post, and go to bed. Discuss it here, if you wish, as it's staff locked. EDIT: Yes, that, exactly what Kairo said
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Post by Kairo on Dec 11, 2014 1:12:13 GMT 1
TC;DU needs to be a thing now...
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Post by Maiyrhia on Dec 11, 2014 1:15:45 GMT 1
I think it is a thing now.
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